View Full Version : Mixing NTSC and PAL
07-26-2007, 11:22 AM
I'm thinking about a future edit combining two movies, but the second is only available in PAL. I'm getting it, so I'll have to convert it to NTSC.
Has anyone had issues combining native NTSC and PAL (converted to NTSC) into one file?
Thanks for the info.
07-26-2007, 11:34 AM
of course there will be issues.
You should by all means make the PAL to NTSC first or you will receive a terrible stutter.
07-26-2007, 11:35 AM
More detail: I will be working in a 23.976p environment. I will be resizing the PAL footage in the editor. Can DGPulldown convert 25fps to 24? Or is it only to 29.97?
07-26-2007, 11:39 AM
converting 25 to 24 is not the best of ideas.
I am sure you will find the right guide here:
PAL2NTSC and framerate conversion guides (http://www.videohelp.com/guides?searchtext=&tools=&madeby=&formatconversionselect=&howtoselect=4%3B41&orderby=Date&listall=1&hits=25&archive=0&search=Search+or+List+Guides)
07-26-2007, 12:26 PM
my method is
load demuxed video file into VDub MPEG set resize filter to 720x480 and frameserve to CCE or TMPGEnc.
then run file through DGPulldown and set frame rate to 29.97
voila, a very, very basic, PAL -> NTSC conversion.
try and have a word with DocM, hes the man when it comes to this.
07-26-2007, 12:35 PM
So what exactly happens if you pulldown to 23.97?
Or perhaps a better question. If I go from 25 to 29.97, can I take that destination file and convert that to 23.97?
See I usually edit at 23.97. I suppose it would be okay to edit at 29.97. Does it make any difference?
07-26-2007, 02:03 PM
I don't know what you'll have to go through to convert the audio (ac3, I presume). But if your PAL video is progressive, then 23.97 would be fine.
I won't trust my memory on DGPulldown.
You'll also have to resize your PAL video down to NTSC.
PAL can be interlaced. If it started life as NTSC, and they converted it to PAL, then it could be a heinous mess that you might not be able to IVTC correctly. (They have different ways that they convert NTSC, some are messy, some arent too bad. You can also get into trouble with PAL TV souces - 25 fps CGI or 25 fps videocamera (maybe mixed in with 24->25 film). In the worst cases you'd be better off converting to 29.97.
Editing in 23.97 (or 25) progressive means you won't end up editing on a telecined frame. So it's more accurate. You don't get the occasional interlace flicker.
Like nOmArch says, Doctor M is the guy to ask, he's had a lot of experience.
07-26-2007, 02:08 PM
as for audio, you can use besweet to go from ntsc rate to pal or vice versa, if you need to. i havent had to a lot of times.
07-26-2007, 02:55 PM
Thanks for the help guys. I'll have the movie in a couple days. I'll give it a shot.
For your info, the movie did originate in NTSC, but is not available on R1 dvd, nor has it ever been.
It's also impossible to get on VHS, so this is really the only shot.
07-29-2007, 03:28 PM
Does the does the PAL to NTSC conversion compensate for the 4% speed up?
Is that permanent or does the conversion convert it back to the proper speed?
Also, should I convert the video separately and use besweet to convert the audio once I have a converted video?
ADDED: I'm using TMPG express 4. Does the process in the guides change for this software.
07-29-2007, 08:33 PM
One last thing. When I import the file into my encoder to resize, etc should I be using an m2v or a frameserved file? Will I lose some serious potential quality in using an m2v.
Virutaldub gets me errors in TMPG, so should I create a PAL project in adobe premiere w/ a muxed MPG and frameserve it to the encoder OR should I just use the m2v I got from using PGCdemux?
I'm pretty pleased with the quality I've gotten from m2vs, but is frameserving from my editor a better idea?
Thanks guys. I really appreciate it.
07-29-2007, 10:00 PM
"converting 25 to 24 is not the best of ideas."
not the best of ideas,damn I must have been doing all my stuff wrong then LOL.
I use avisynth for all this stuff,and I have NEVER had a problem yet converting ANY of my Retail PAL DVD's,I just use these commands in avisynth:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
among other filters I decide to use depending on what I am doing,and I get my .d2v files from DGIndex,it will also tell you the delay in the .ac3 file if any.
and I have not had ANY problems yet to date converting the sound either,just sometimes occasional lower volume,but still works fine.
If the sound is only DD 2.0 you can convert to PCM and normalise to get a overall boost and then remake your .ac3 file from that,which also works just fine,I have converted a ton of DVD's and doing some right now as I type.
So if there are better methods,I would love to hear them,but for now this method works great for me.
I have gotten these methods from Citizen and Moth3r at OT,and everyone knows(pretty sure everyone knows)how well Citizens SW sets and Moth3rs SW sets turned out.
1 thing you might want to check though is after you make your avisynth script you want to test it first,for any wierd interlace problems,I have only found wierd problems sometimes with downloaded avi's from the Internet,I have not found ANY with retail PAL DVD's(knock on wood) so far.
but what I do to check is load your avisynth script in VirtualDub MPEG2 and then step it forward frame by frame with the keys buttons,and look for any problems,also you can click on file and then file information and it will tell you that your video in running at 23.976 fps.
hope this helps
like I said I am sure there are waay better tech experts that will say this does not work,but it works for me,and EVERYONE that has had me convert DVD's for them.
07-30-2007, 11:15 AM
My E3 edit had a mixture of NTSC & PAL. I use PAL as standard but didn't bother converting the NTSC film because... well because I'm lazy.
Fortuantly you don't really notice the stutter because the NTSC sections is just two guys sitting on their arses talking. I suppose if it's an action movie with lots of movement mixing the two will be a bit of a mess.
Sorry, I've just realised this comment was of no help whatsoever, but like I said if your film is just two people being v.still for two hours you should be ok. :-?
07-30-2007, 02:46 PM
Here are some of my results. The file I got from frameserving the M2v from perimere into the encoder did work, but it did not fix the 4% speed-up. My new NTSC file is the axact same length as the PAL.
What I have found is that simply playing the 25fps video back at 23.976 in premiere looks more appropriate and obviously fixes the 4% speed-up.
I think I need some serious help here. My biggest concern is slowing down the video to the proper speed.
07-30-2007, 03:28 PM
if you turn the video to avi you can use "avifrate" to just change the framerate to your likings. With an audio editor you should be able to match the video length then.
07-30-2007, 04:52 PM
Interesting update. I'm using premiere pro w/ debugmode frameserver. I created a PAL project and imported the m2v file into premiere. The running time was 1h 23mins. I exported the signpost at 23.976. This increased the length to 1h 27mins, which is correct based on speedup calculations. When I imported the file into TMPG it said 1h 27m. From here I am exporting an m2v at 23.976. I ran some tests and am very happy with the results. That has about 2.5 hours left.
To figure out BeSweet to convert the audio. This should take care of it.
If anyone is interested in the film itself, it's Maniac Cop 2. It is not available in NTSC, so I am creating a preservation for myself. I also may be using some of the scenes from it to add into the first Maniac Cop.
08-02-2007, 08:27 AM
Thanks for all the help guys. I finally figured out the best method for me.
I open the PAL m2v in VirtualDub. I set the PLAYBACK rate to 23.976. All this does is correct the 4% speedup, which is all I want.
I then import into TMPG. It was a BITCH to get this program to accept the virtualdub avi. I encode at 720x480 @ 23.97 w/ 3:2 pulldown. I get a perfect, non stuttery m2v file.
Next step is to import the m2v and the original audio file into adobe premiere and stretch the audio to fit the length of the movie, voila!
Of course this is all theory as I've run a test that was only a few seconds long and am now encoding the full movie.
On another cool sidenote. This DVD I was using was an all region dvd. It was supposed to be able to play in my region 1. I stuck it in and no dice. Out of curiosity I stuck it into my Xbox 360 and it worked. I barely notice the 4% speedup. It makes me think all this effort I've been going through to fix it was wasted. Least I know now.
08-03-2007, 11:54 PM
VirtualDub! (Self-inflicted forehead slap). I knew there was an easy way to change the framerate. (Stupid, stupid, stupid...). :)
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